First Round Management CEO Malki Kawa sat down with staff writer Trevor Ritchie to discuss his start in the sports industry, Southern Miss running back Frank Gore Jr. and the NIL era as a whole. Kawa represents clients across multiple sports including UFC welterweight contender Jorge Masvidal and Indianapolis Colts linebacker Darius Leonard, among many others. Leonard recently became the highest-paid inside linebacker in NFL history with Kawa’s help, cementing FRM as a legitimate player in the football space as it now moves into NIL representation as well.

First off, how did all of this start for you?

Kawa: “It started 15 years ago. I really had no intention of ever being a sports agent. I actually became one because of Frank Gore Sr. Me and him were friends. We played at rival high schools. We got introduced by one of our mutual high school coaches, and me and him just became friends. We’ve been friends this whole time. He got drafted in 2005, and I got my license in 2005. But that was after the draft. The way the license works is you get it later on that year. We remained friends, and everything just kind of happened by accident. In 2008, I opened First Round Management and got into the MMA side of things. Completely killed that and then turned around and came back to football.”

Did you have much of a background, and how did you build this to the point of landing a Jon Jones, Jorge Masvidal, Darius Leonard, etc.?

Kawa: “It was on Frank [Gore]’s suggestion that I became a sports agent because of the relationship we had and because of the way that I was. I realized at the end of the day, the modern athlete today wants somebody who can be professional, that can get the job done, but at the same time someone who’s going to fight for them and be down to earth where they can relate to them. I felt like I could fit that description based on my relationship with Frank, and as I’ve gotten older, I’ve always just basically told myself to continue on that same thing. Never be too old to where you don’t relate to a younger man. Always understand what they like, what they don’t like. Be professional enough to sit in the room with the suits, but always be real to your client and who you are. That’s kind of what it is, and that’s kind of what I did. To go get the guys like Jon Jones, Jorge Masvidal and all the different clients we represent, it’s just been by my work. I let my work speak for itself. I did a lot of hustling in both sports. One guy realizes, then the next guy, then the next guy, and then before you know it you have a roster of badasses across the board.”

What’s your take on the new name, image, likeness era in college football? It’s come on pretty quick. I know it’s a market you’re taking advantage of. There still seems to be a lot of questions, but what’s it like from your perspective? Especially relative to the Conference USA level and how you see players making the most out of this.

Kawa: “It has a lot to do with the reality of sports. I think that people don’t realize not every guy in the NFL gets a deal. Offensive lineman, defensive lineman are at the bottom of the food chain. Your quarterbacks, running backs, receivers are at the top of the food chain. Everything else is in between. The quarterback of the Dallas Cowboys is probably making more than a quarterback in Minnesota, and I’m not talking about their contracts. I’m talking about just in marketing. Every market has its size and its relevance, and if you’re a Dallas Cowboy across any position then you’re probably making more money than guys in other places. It also comes down to what you create for yourself as a player. If you look at Ochocinco when he was playing, he made a name for himself by changing his name and all the antics on and off the field. He makes money to this day in marketing because he’s built up his social influence, and he’s marketable in that sense. He’s got a voice. You look at Odell Beckham Jr. He has one of the larger Instagram followings amongst all football players. It doesn’t matter that he’s in Cleveland. Cleveland’s been traditionally not a great market for marketing unless you’re the quarterback. Odell still has his national brands and his deals because he’s got a voice. I think the problem is that people look at it like, ‘Oh, it’s Conference USA.’ I get it. Places like Alabama have boosters, companies and businesses around them and a lot of eyeballs because of who they are. But a kid like Frank Gore Jr., who carries the name and was one of the best freshman running backs last year, who’s to say there aren’t 10 or 15 corporations in Mississippi owned by alums that say that’s finally somebody we can get behind? Every player has to understand not everyone is going to get a deal. Where you’re located has a part to do with that. What position you play has a part to do with that. Even if you do play a position that they like and you’re a good enough football player to where people watch you, what type of vocabulary do you use? How do you speak? What’s the look like? Also, you can’t just match people up to match people up. Sometimes it doesn’t work. There’s a lot that goes into marketing, and I think that’s the problem. A lot of people don’t understand it. So, you sign a kid from Southern Miss and it’s like, ‘What are you going to do with him? Did you sign him just to sign him?’ That’s kind of the problem with NIL.”

I’m curious how much you think NIL will change the recruiting landscape, even at the lower level. We’ve seen First Round Management help facilitate the first beer/liquor deal for a college athlete, FAU quarterback N’Kosi Perry. How did that deal go down; what’d you have to go through with administration, and how much will it change the playing field if other schools prevent such deals?

Kawa: “Let’s analyze this and look at it from both perspectives. If you’re a father, you’re thinking about sending your kid to FAU and they’re allowing kids to get beer sponsors, I don’t know if that makes you happy or not. But let’s not fool ourselves. Most of these kids are drinking beer. Most people, especially in the south, probably understand that. We have to be real about what’s going here. N’Kosi Perry is not 18 or 19. He’s older than 21. He’s old enough, and its legal for him to endorse this product. Now as a parent, you might look at it and say, ‘I’m not cool with FAU for that.’ Another parent might look at it and say, ‘Hey, kid. Go to FAU. You might become the starting quarterback and maybe Islamorada Beer ends up sponsoring you.’ It could be looked at both ways. What are we really telling these kids? They’re going to be 21 one day. They might make it to the NFL. The NFL says you can’t have a beer sponsor, but every stadium, team and the NFL itself has beer sponsorships. So, what are we really saying? You can’t use marijuana. You can’t have cannabis. But everywhere else throughout the country now, marijuana’s becoming legal. CBD, even though there’s no THC in it and it’s shown to have a lot of good medicinal properties, people still look down on it. But that’s case by case, state to state, school to school. That’s what I think is cool about this NIL stuff. If you’re in the administration somewhere and you don’t think it’s appropriate for your college athletes to endorse certain products, then don’t do it. That’s the best part about this. I don’t want to sound standoffish on it, but I don’t think 21 year olds should have the ability to sponsor weapons. I don’t think that’s a good look. But if one school somewhere in the country said, ‘Hey, hunting’s a big deal here. This is an open carry state.’ and there’s all these other things to it, then it makes sense that school or that state does that. What’s cool about the NIL stuff is the power’s back in the school’s hands. Whether it’s Conference USA or whatever conference, those kids never made this money and struggled while they were in college. Now at the very minimum, that kid has to be paid. So, if Southern Miss said you aren’t allowed to do anything outside of certain categories at least those kids still have the ability to do that.”

Was it big for you guys to set a precedent with the Perry deal?

Kawa: “I don’t know that it was big for us. In general, it was a statement. It was big for everyone in general. Listen, even on the NFL side of stuff no one’s allowed to endorse alcohol. Why not? You can do it in NASCAR. You see it on their cars. So, why not? Beer sales are the biggest part of almost every stadium’s revenue besides tickets. It’s beer, alcohol and food. Look, I didn’t do the deal to try to change the game or anything to that effect. It just so happens this is the first alcohol deal for an active football player I think on the college or the NFL level. N’Kosi Perry started off the season on the right foot in the way he played against Florida. He’s going to play well this weekend. He’ll play well the weekend after that. It’s going to show other leagues, ‘Why are we telling athletes they can’t do something?’ Unless it’s an exclusivity that these leagues want to keep, there’s really no reason to not let athletes make money when the league or school is.

Are you worried about rubbing anyone the wrong way?

Kawa: “Rubbing people the wrong way is okay when my client benefits. For me, I don’t worry about what people say. I’m more worried about what my clients are doing or not doing. This deal wasn’t about N’Kosi Perry drinking beer. This was about an FAU alum who owns a beer company and wanted to get his brand out there more. What better way than to support someone that plays football at FAU and might be the most recognizable player at FAU. In my opinion, that’s a win for the company; that’s a win for N’Kosi, and that’s a win for FAU. I don’t know that that’s a bad thing.”

You know this. Frank Gore Jr. is the guy at Southern Miss. You’ve known him for quite some time. What was the conversation like getting him on board; what advice do you give him, and how do you try to ensure he reaches his highest potential from the aspect you can assist?

Kawa: “I knew Frank Gore Jr. when he was a baby. It was a natural thing. I’ve been a part of the family for 20 years. Me and his dad have always had a good relationship. Me and his dad are very, very tight friends. We do a lot of things together. Frank Jr. went through his process. He interviewed a bunch of different agents, including his dad’s football agent, and he chose me. I think it was due to the relationship. I think it had to do with a lot of other things, too. We immediately went from there. We signed a deal with Lomelo’s Meat Market right off the bat. It’s a wagyu beef company here in Miami, and I think the cool thing about Frank Jr. is, since his name is Frank Gore, you get the Miami area and the Southern Miss area. When you get both markets like that and you play running back, you have an opportunity to make a lot of money. I sat down and told him the truth. He’s at a school that is not considered one of the big Power Five schools. He knew that. A lot of this comes off what you do, who you are and what the people around you in your area want to see happen with you. I think that the Southern Miss community has to look at it and say, ‘We get to support one of our own.’ Look, Miami is a recruiting hotbed. Think about Frank Gore Jr. If he’s able to go to Southern Miss, have a smooth four years there, go to the NFL… is that not the story that Southern Miss would want to tell?? ‘Hey, we had a kid come here, happened to be the son of a Hall of Famer, and he had a great career at Southern Miss. He goes to the NFL. He got all types of endorsements. The community came around him.’ To me, if I’m the AD or if I’m the head coach, I’m sitting there and trying to figure out how to make him more visible to allow more things to come to him. Therefore, they can use that as an example in recruiting. That’s what some of these other schools are realizing.”

What is Gore Jr. like personally? We see him as a player. We see him with the media. What’s it like on the business side of things with you as a family friend?

Kawa: “He’s just like his dad. He’s focused. He’s very determined. Hardheaded. Workaholic. He’s got all type of good quality traits. He’s amazing. I think as a person he’s a good kid. Anybody that’s had the opportunity to come across him and get to know him is blessed. He’s a really good kid, and it’s a testament to his father and his parents in general. They’ve raised him up right. He’s humble. One thing about Frank Gore Jr. I’ll tell you is, you watch a lot of celebrity kids go to school. Michael Jordan’s kid. Walter Payton’s kid. Snoop Dogg’s kid. Diddy’s kid. They all went to play sports, and a lot of them had all this limelight on them where some of them couldn’t live up to the expectation or it was just never them. Whatever the excuse is, whatever you think the reality of it is, for whatever reason those kids did not do well on the next level or even on the level that their dad’s did in college. But if you look at little Frank, he wears that name on his back. He wears the number his dad wore. He embraces being his son. He just looks at it and says, ‘My dad’s the best to do it. I’m going to learn from him, and everything that my dad does right I’m going to do the same thing if not better. Everything that my dad didn’t do right, I’m gonna try to go out there and do that even better.’ So, when you watch his running style, how he speaks, his work ethic, how he laughs, how he jokes around, all that: he’s a spitting image of his dad. When I look at little Frank, I say to myself that’s a future football player in the NFL. For as big or as small as he is, whatever people want to say, he’s got it. I think that’s one of the most important things that you can have. ‘It’ factor. Frank Gore Jr. is destined for greatness, and it’s just up to him to continue to stay on that path.”

One more thing on the Gore family before I let you go... Frank Gore Sr., would he really fight Logan Paul?

Kawa: “All day, every day. It’s not even, ‘does he have a chance?’ He’d probably knock him out within the first three rounds. A little story that people don’t know about me and Frank: when he was in college, when I met him before I was an agent, he wanted to stay in shape and do something different than just run the hills and ladder drills. The heat here in Florida, I’m sure at Southern Miss it’s also bad, but it gets really bad here in the summers. He was doing all that, but it kind of got to a point where it was just easy for him. He asked me what he could do to help him stay in shape, be in better shape and something that others aren’t doing that maybe he could do. I wrestled in high school and boxed, so I said the one thing I can tell you for a fact that would help you is wrestling. But most guys aren’t going to want to wrestle once they’re 20 years old. At that point, it’s probably passed them by. In football, there’s probably no reason to get into it. So, we went to the boxing gym one day together. He came with me to go box. He watched me box. He got in there. He started to do it. He fell in love with it, and he’s been boxing for the last 20 years. He hits mitts, trains and spars every offseason. A lot of people don’t know that about him, but he does that every single offseason. When he was in California with the 49ers, he went to the AKA gym and would train there. The season would be over with, and he’d just get into a boxing gym. Wherever he’d be at, he’d have a boxing gym. He’d go in there; he’d train, and he’d leave. Just kept doing the same thing over and over again. Now, as he gets closer and closer to retirement, the itch to fight is there. Would he fight Logan Paul? Absolutely. He asked Logan Paul to fight. He got in Logan’s face at the Jake Paul-Tyron Woodley fight. If it weren’t for a lot of other things going off, you guys probably would’ve seen that video. But Frank Gore legitimately would love to fight Jake Paul, Logan Paul, you name it.”